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COMMENT 1:
The Church is being attacked, and to leave is not a solution. A true Christian will be persecuted no matter where he goes. The solution is peace love and unity, which those who are attacking will not permit, so we must carry the cross. If a cross comes along and we find a way around (so as not to have to carry that cross), and then we do the same with the next difficulty, and the next, then we will have no cross to carry. A Christian without a cross to carry, there's no such thing. The Scripture says, Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; And as to visiting other religions, that is idolatry. Read the Bible. (AUS)
COMMENT 2:
Not all ACC Christians believe that way. There are many of us who accept Christians from other denominations as brothers and sisters in Christ. There are many false teachings out there and we must be discerning, but it will NOT be an all ACC heaven. Whoever believes it will be that way is deceived. The Bible is clear - ALL those who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and believe will be saved! There is no stipulation that says you must be ACC. (USA)
COMMENT 3:
Reading these comments, I am picking up a few things here...
Re the Altona issues.. I feel sorry for all of you. I do not attend an ACC church, but it sounds like a very stressful situation. What if you think about these issues below and perhaps ask the Lord to give you some insight, to lead to peace within yourselves first individually, rather than a mass peace, as that is impossible to achieve on a plural level. When every single soul is peaceful individually, this will lead to mass peace.
1) There is no real unity at all if the root of the problem is never being addressed over the years. You cannot keep mowing over the problem, and expect a solution because the same nasty satanic weed will keep growing up and out. Court will not fix it and ten meetings. The problems are "within" and in the "spirit".
2) The issue is not about a church building only, etc. but it appears there may be a deep spiritual sickness in this church building that is spreading and infecting the church with spiritual sickly germs from the enemy, that works in opposition to the Spirit of God where there should be love, peace and unity. Not one of you will see this, because you are all in that church building and involved personally. Once you move up and out, you will see things from an entirely different perspective. You cannot heal until you leave the place that is making you sick. I am not saying you all are sick and trouble makers, but you all are being affected by a deadly virus (directly or indirectly) from an enemy that hates God.
3) Do you realise that Satan is the creator of crosses too? And to carry that "Altona fighting cross" that always seems to get bigger, is not the will of God. There is a clear difference between carrying the Lord's cross and the devil's cross. The cross the enemy has hand designed for you in Altona church, will always create a wedge between you and God, and stop you from forming an intimate abiding relationship with Him. So, ask yourself? Being in a church that never ever has come to a resolution in peace and love, and that continually is never healed from fightings and is always in war mode, should make you think twice. No, do not fall away to false doctrines or devils, but ask the Lord, where He can place you where you can grow in Him, and for Him. If you need to stay in Altona, stay. But, if He knows you will grow better somewhere else, follow His leading.
4) The situation will only get worse and you will not solve your problems unless you act yourself, personally. Full stop. My point is, yes, carry your cross, and do not run away from them, and God wants that, but eventually, when you see that whole church cannot function peacefully AS A WHOLE, you must change your approach. Leave or stay and fight for the rest of your life in a sick unhealthy environment that is outside the will of God. After all, fighting in any house of God should eventually stop. If it goes on permanently, what damage can this do to you and your precious families?
When God sees a church is not functioning as it should be, and He is cast aside whilst man follows man, and totally forgets about Him, He may decide to break down the church completely, so it does not exist at all. Then, He will build it up again, the way He wants with peace and love, fixing the root problems. So, I sadly think, that if you guys cannot resolve your differences, the whole church will no longer exist as a whole eventually. But take heart! That death may bring the best healing to every individual soul and produce a re-birth of a massive repentance and tears. You see, it is not about a building, and who paid what, and what I own, and my physical comfort of the building...
It is all about your personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ. If your spiritual head is growing fat in man, and you are growing more and more in man, and there is complete total intimacy in this way, you are being a puppet of the enemy. So sad. Fat heads, lean spirits. This whole mess here is making you grow enormously. But, the growth is in the flesh. You are growing more angry, more bitter, and the demonic merry go round, is having a field day with you.
Get off it, and ask the Lord, what His will is for you only. God does not have one mass will for all of you. He really really truly cares if you are hurting and if you are an innocent victim in all of this. If you are truly growing in the Spirit and becoming more Christ like in this environment, I am very glad. However, if it is doing more damage than good, you may need to ask the Lord for a REVIEW. Some may be able to handle it, but some may be very affected by all the upheavals. I know personally for me, this environment, would be the worst possible place for me to grow in. We are all unique and God treats us as individuals. Not as ONE HUGE ALTONA MASS. We are singular souls, not one big plural soul. God personally cares about your soul, and your hurts in all of this. It is all about God and you at the end of the day.
I love you all. I will be praying for you. (AUS)
COMMENT 4:
For comment number two: Mixing with other religions, is according to the Word of God, a very grievous sin. You say that,"Not all ACC Christians believe that way". and that, "There are many of us who accept Christians from other denominations as brothers and sisters in Christ". You are very wrong. There are NOT many who do/believe that.
Look, Jdg 2:1 ...I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
Jdg 2:2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
2Co 6:14,15,16 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?
This intermixing with other denominations is EXACTLY what happen in the Old Testament (all over again, today). Jdg_2:13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.
Some worshiped Baal some Ashtaroth, and some worshiped Moloch and Remphan, and do you want to worship together with these and different denominations? This "IS" exactly that!
Did you comment: "If you claim the ACC church is the only one saved, then how come you cannot be all joined in unity?" Answer: because according to the Word of God in the last time (now) there will be false teachers and apostle "among your own selves". 2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies," That's why. This must be fulfilled. And it's a sign that the end is near.
But I do agree with you with one point, "it will get worse". Satan is doing this, in order to try to disperse the true faith. The persecution is coming (from Satan) via the false brethren who sit in the front benches. (AUS)
COMMENT 5:
For Comment 4: Please let me clarify. I did not say there are many who mix with other religions or denominations. I said that most ACC Christians will acknowledge that true Christianity is not limited to the ACC. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all (Ephesians 4:4-6). Whether you like it or not, there will be multitudes of non-ACC Christians in heaven who are therefore our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth. To believe otherwise is ignorant and unbiblical. (USA)
COMMENT 6:
For comment number three, you wrote:
'...but it appears there may be a deep spiritual sickness in this church building that is spreading and infecting the church with spiritual sickly germs from the enemy, that works in opposition to the Spirit of God where there should be love, peace and unity.'
Yes, that is true, Thou art not far from the righteousness. (GER)
COMMENT 7:
To comment 5, thank you for clarifying. My friend, I want all to be saved, but sadly not all will be saved. And I agree with you that there is "one faith", meaning - one true faith. And I have a question for you, when the ACC Nazarenes were persecuted and were imprisoned for their testimony, and for refusing to sign the military oath and refusing to bear arms, HOW COME (since you think other religious also have salvation) that 99% of THOSE were Nazarenes and all other religions agreed with the military oath and the bearing of arms. It is crystal clear, that oaths and bearing of arms, is against the teachings of the Word of God. My opinion "is" Biblical. A remnant will be saved, Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a REMNANT according to the election of grace. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the "remnant" of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I believe that what is written in the Bible. And when I look around I see that "most" people are, less or more, living in sin. Where are these multitudes of Christians, that you are talking about? I'm talking about "true" Christians, I'm not talking about those who "call" themselves Christians. (AUS)
COMMENT 8:
To Comment 7: I appreciate your response but I disagree with most of it. I do not believe this is the proper forum for a one-on-one debate so I will leave you with a few final thoughts.
Bearing arms is not a sin. Apostle Peter himself carried a sword.
The remnant you referenced in Romans 11 is referring to the true Jews who remained faithful to God. It is not referring to Christians at all.
The multitudes of Christians I am talking about are described in Revelation 7:9-10. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying , Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
My friend you are correct when you say some call themselves Christians who are not true Christians. However, according to your thinking there could be no true Christians between the time of the early church until the ACC was established. That is ridiculous. The Bible is clear - all who accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour and have a personal relationship with him WILL BE SAVED. You are dead wrong. Being ACC has NOTHING to do with it. There are multitudes of TRUE Christians around the world from every nation who will be in heaven. (USA)
COMMENT 9:
The bearing of arms "IS" a sin!! Yet you think it isn't? Will you also tell him that? Sorry, but you do not sound like a real Christian. The bearing of arms "IS" a sin, and it has always been the case in the ACC Nazarene faith. What are arms/weapons for? For killing, so the next step would be to permit killing. Hey! God said "Do not kill." Do you think God is wrong? (AUS)
COMMENT 10:
Comment 9: Regardless of what you think, I am a real Christian. Bearing arms is not sin by itself, and not all weapons are used for killing. It comes down to the motive of the person's heart. According to your logic, we should never speak because the next step is lying or gossip. We should never eat because the next step is gluttony. We should never look at a statue because the next step is idol worship. I could go on and on. Yes, killing is wrong but bearing arms alone is not. All this is beside the point though. We may not agree about arms and that is fine with me. The real issue we were discussing here is whether or not one has to be ACC to be a true Christian. Heaven is not reserved only for ACC, and all true Christians around the world are our brothers and sisters in Christ. (USA)
To comment 10, I largely agree with the "Our Comment" that the site replied to, under comment 10. I would like to add that Baptists and Adventists and Pentecostal and Catholics and Lutherans, both bear arms, serve in the military (which require oaths) and participate in war. According to the true and correct Christian faith, this is fundamentally wrong and according to the Word of God, it is sin. Therefore we must not mix with them. (AUS)
Please
provide some facts and information. Do the ACC's think, that if they
leave a church with lots of fighting, and go to another church outside
the ACC, (not based on sin or false doctrine) they will go to Hell? How
can this be proven? How can this be assessed if no one has ever done
this with close observation? How then can all the churches in the whole
wide world, be labelled as devil churches when only God knows? How can
we play God? This is very sinful. The absolute truth is that no one
knows every single church building, only God. Have you seen the Holy
Spirit physically enter a born again soul and you have ACC books that
record this? That is God's business. We do not GIVE OUT THE HOLY
SPIRIT. We cannot judge others we know nothing about.COMMENT 1:
The Church is being attacked, and to leave is not a solution. A true Christian will be persecuted no matter where he goes. The solution is peace love and unity, which those who are attacking will not permit, so we must carry the cross. If a cross comes along and we find a way around (so as not to have to carry that cross), and then we do the same with the next difficulty, and the next, then we will have no cross to carry. A Christian without a cross to carry, there's no such thing. The Scripture says, Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; And as to visiting other religions, that is idolatry. Read the Bible. (AUS)
COMMENT 2:
Not all ACC Christians believe that way. There are many of us who accept Christians from other denominations as brothers and sisters in Christ. There are many false teachings out there and we must be discerning, but it will NOT be an all ACC heaven. Whoever believes it will be that way is deceived. The Bible is clear - ALL those who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and believe will be saved! There is no stipulation that says you must be ACC. (USA)
COMMENT 3:
Reading these comments, I am picking up a few things here...
Re the Altona issues.. I feel sorry for all of you. I do not attend an ACC church, but it sounds like a very stressful situation. What if you think about these issues below and perhaps ask the Lord to give you some insight, to lead to peace within yourselves first individually, rather than a mass peace, as that is impossible to achieve on a plural level. When every single soul is peaceful individually, this will lead to mass peace.
1) There is no real unity at all if the root of the problem is never being addressed over the years. You cannot keep mowing over the problem, and expect a solution because the same nasty satanic weed will keep growing up and out. Court will not fix it and ten meetings. The problems are "within" and in the "spirit".
2) The issue is not about a church building only, etc. but it appears there may be a deep spiritual sickness in this church building that is spreading and infecting the church with spiritual sickly germs from the enemy, that works in opposition to the Spirit of God where there should be love, peace and unity. Not one of you will see this, because you are all in that church building and involved personally. Once you move up and out, you will see things from an entirely different perspective. You cannot heal until you leave the place that is making you sick. I am not saying you all are sick and trouble makers, but you all are being affected by a deadly virus (directly or indirectly) from an enemy that hates God.
3) Do you realise that Satan is the creator of crosses too? And to carry that "Altona fighting cross" that always seems to get bigger, is not the will of God. There is a clear difference between carrying the Lord's cross and the devil's cross. The cross the enemy has hand designed for you in Altona church, will always create a wedge between you and God, and stop you from forming an intimate abiding relationship with Him. So, ask yourself? Being in a church that never ever has come to a resolution in peace and love, and that continually is never healed from fightings and is always in war mode, should make you think twice. No, do not fall away to false doctrines or devils, but ask the Lord, where He can place you where you can grow in Him, and for Him. If you need to stay in Altona, stay. But, if He knows you will grow better somewhere else, follow His leading.
4) The situation will only get worse and you will not solve your problems unless you act yourself, personally. Full stop. My point is, yes, carry your cross, and do not run away from them, and God wants that, but eventually, when you see that whole church cannot function peacefully AS A WHOLE, you must change your approach. Leave or stay and fight for the rest of your life in a sick unhealthy environment that is outside the will of God. After all, fighting in any house of God should eventually stop. If it goes on permanently, what damage can this do to you and your precious families?
When God sees a church is not functioning as it should be, and He is cast aside whilst man follows man, and totally forgets about Him, He may decide to break down the church completely, so it does not exist at all. Then, He will build it up again, the way He wants with peace and love, fixing the root problems. So, I sadly think, that if you guys cannot resolve your differences, the whole church will no longer exist as a whole eventually. But take heart! That death may bring the best healing to every individual soul and produce a re-birth of a massive repentance and tears. You see, it is not about a building, and who paid what, and what I own, and my physical comfort of the building...
It is all about your personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ. If your spiritual head is growing fat in man, and you are growing more and more in man, and there is complete total intimacy in this way, you are being a puppet of the enemy. So sad. Fat heads, lean spirits. This whole mess here is making you grow enormously. But, the growth is in the flesh. You are growing more angry, more bitter, and the demonic merry go round, is having a field day with you.
Get off it, and ask the Lord, what His will is for you only. God does not have one mass will for all of you. He really really truly cares if you are hurting and if you are an innocent victim in all of this. If you are truly growing in the Spirit and becoming more Christ like in this environment, I am very glad. However, if it is doing more damage than good, you may need to ask the Lord for a REVIEW. Some may be able to handle it, but some may be very affected by all the upheavals. I know personally for me, this environment, would be the worst possible place for me to grow in. We are all unique and God treats us as individuals. Not as ONE HUGE ALTONA MASS. We are singular souls, not one big plural soul. God personally cares about your soul, and your hurts in all of this. It is all about God and you at the end of the day.
I love you all. I will be praying for you. (AUS)
COMMENT 4:
For comment number two: Mixing with other religions, is according to the Word of God, a very grievous sin. You say that,"Not all ACC Christians believe that way". and that, "There are many of us who accept Christians from other denominations as brothers and sisters in Christ". You are very wrong. There are NOT many who do/believe that.
Look, Jdg 2:1 ...I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
Jdg 2:2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
2Co 6:14,15,16 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?
This intermixing with other denominations is EXACTLY what happen in the Old Testament (all over again, today). Jdg_2:13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.
Some worshiped Baal some Ashtaroth, and some worshiped Moloch and Remphan, and do you want to worship together with these and different denominations? This "IS" exactly that!
Did you comment: "If you claim the ACC church is the only one saved, then how come you cannot be all joined in unity?" Answer: because according to the Word of God in the last time (now) there will be false teachers and apostle "among your own selves". 2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies," That's why. This must be fulfilled. And it's a sign that the end is near.
But I do agree with you with one point, "it will get worse". Satan is doing this, in order to try to disperse the true faith. The persecution is coming (from Satan) via the false brethren who sit in the front benches. (AUS)
COMMENT 5:
For Comment 4: Please let me clarify. I did not say there are many who mix with other religions or denominations. I said that most ACC Christians will acknowledge that true Christianity is not limited to the ACC. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all (Ephesians 4:4-6). Whether you like it or not, there will be multitudes of non-ACC Christians in heaven who are therefore our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth. To believe otherwise is ignorant and unbiblical. (USA)
OUR COMMENT: Andrew
Szabo from Perth had mentioned once that he was planning to write a
book called "The History
of Christianity in Australia".
According to him, the beginning of that history would be when the first
Nazarenes from Yugoslavia started coming to this continent, which was
back then in 1950s. There was no Christianity in Australia prior to
that.
COMMENT 6:
For comment number three, you wrote:
'...but it appears there may be a deep spiritual sickness in this church building that is spreading and infecting the church with spiritual sickly germs from the enemy, that works in opposition to the Spirit of God where there should be love, peace and unity.'
Yes, that is true, Thou art not far from the righteousness. (GER)
COMMENT 7:
To comment 5, thank you for clarifying. My friend, I want all to be saved, but sadly not all will be saved. And I agree with you that there is "one faith", meaning - one true faith. And I have a question for you, when the ACC Nazarenes were persecuted and were imprisoned for their testimony, and for refusing to sign the military oath and refusing to bear arms, HOW COME (since you think other religious also have salvation) that 99% of THOSE were Nazarenes and all other religions agreed with the military oath and the bearing of arms. It is crystal clear, that oaths and bearing of arms, is against the teachings of the Word of God. My opinion "is" Biblical. A remnant will be saved, Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a REMNANT according to the election of grace. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the "remnant" of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I believe that what is written in the Bible. And when I look around I see that "most" people are, less or more, living in sin. Where are these multitudes of Christians, that you are talking about? I'm talking about "true" Christians, I'm not talking about those who "call" themselves Christians. (AUS)
COMMENT 8:
To Comment 7: I appreciate your response but I disagree with most of it. I do not believe this is the proper forum for a one-on-one debate so I will leave you with a few final thoughts.
Bearing arms is not a sin. Apostle Peter himself carried a sword.
The remnant you referenced in Romans 11 is referring to the true Jews who remained faithful to God. It is not referring to Christians at all.
The multitudes of Christians I am talking about are described in Revelation 7:9-10. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying , Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
My friend you are correct when you say some call themselves Christians who are not true Christians. However, according to your thinking there could be no true Christians between the time of the early church until the ACC was established. That is ridiculous. The Bible is clear - all who accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour and have a personal relationship with him WILL BE SAVED. You are dead wrong. Being ACC has NOTHING to do with it. There are multitudes of TRUE Christians around the world from every nation who will be in heaven. (USA)
COMMENT 9:
The bearing of arms "IS" a sin!! Yet you think it isn't? Will you also tell him that? Sorry, but you do not sound like a real Christian. The bearing of arms "IS" a sin, and it has always been the case in the ACC Nazarene faith. What are arms/weapons for? For killing, so the next step would be to permit killing. Hey! God said "Do not kill." Do you think God is wrong? (AUS)
COMMENT 10:
Comment 9: Regardless of what you think, I am a real Christian. Bearing arms is not sin by itself, and not all weapons are used for killing. It comes down to the motive of the person's heart. According to your logic, we should never speak because the next step is lying or gossip. We should never eat because the next step is gluttony. We should never look at a statue because the next step is idol worship. I could go on and on. Yes, killing is wrong but bearing arms alone is not. All this is beside the point though. We may not agree about arms and that is fine with me. The real issue we were discussing here is whether or not one has to be ACC to be a true Christian. Heaven is not reserved only for ACC, and all true Christians around the world are our brothers and sisters in Christ. (USA)
OUR COMMENT:
Well, carrying an M16 clearly demonstrates the "readiness", to put it that way, to hurt/kill humans (...not pigeons). On the other hand, saying that all other churches have no salvation because they do not observe a cult of martyrdom of those who refused to bear arms is beside the point. Please understand: those who refused the arms and subsequently suffered imprisonment deserve a credit, but not YOU. Or any other ACC / non-ACC member. That was their INDIVIDUAL act. Just belonging to a church that have had such individuals in the past is not going to help YOU. Except in a form of a good example. You have to prove yourself, to carry your own cross. Just being a Nazarene does not guarantee you salvation, i.e. because somebody else suffered you are going to be saved. The Nazarene church today is clearly not that Nazarene church from the past, and anyone who reads this website will agree. So the real question is, are the Nazarenes today any better than the Christians in other Christian denominations (not religions, that is a different thing!) and is worshiping God with the Nazarenes going to help you more or less than worshiping with, let's say, Baptists or Adventists?
COMMENT
11: Well, carrying an M16 clearly demonstrates the "readiness", to put it that way, to hurt/kill humans (...not pigeons). On the other hand, saying that all other churches have no salvation because they do not observe a cult of martyrdom of those who refused to bear arms is beside the point. Please understand: those who refused the arms and subsequently suffered imprisonment deserve a credit, but not YOU. Or any other ACC / non-ACC member. That was their INDIVIDUAL act. Just belonging to a church that have had such individuals in the past is not going to help YOU. Except in a form of a good example. You have to prove yourself, to carry your own cross. Just being a Nazarene does not guarantee you salvation, i.e. because somebody else suffered you are going to be saved. The Nazarene church today is clearly not that Nazarene church from the past, and anyone who reads this website will agree. So the real question is, are the Nazarenes today any better than the Christians in other Christian denominations (not religions, that is a different thing!) and is worshiping God with the Nazarenes going to help you more or less than worshiping with, let's say, Baptists or Adventists?
To comment 10, I largely agree with the "Our Comment" that the site replied to, under comment 10. I would like to add that Baptists and Adventists and Pentecostal and Catholics and Lutherans, both bear arms, serve in the military (which require oaths) and participate in war. According to the true and correct Christian faith, this is fundamentally wrong and according to the Word of God, it is sin. Therefore we must not mix with them. (AUS)